Easter

2^nd Digression Easter
Easter and the Ancients

Easter, Ishtar, Ashtoreth, Oestara, Astarte, Semiramus, ...

The name Easter, like the names of the days of the week, is a survival from the old Teutonic mythology. According to Bede [an eighth century monk] it is derived from Oestre, or Ostdra, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month answering to our April, and called Eoster-monath, was dedicated.
-- "Easter", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed.
What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people of Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments is Ishtar."
-- The Two Babylons, Hislop, p. 103

Many ancient cultures share this legend of Semiramus and Nimrod: called by such names as Ishtar and Tammuz in Babylon; Isis and Osiris in Egypt; Astarte and Bel in Syria; Aphrodite, Cybele, or Venus, and Attis or Adonis in Greece and Rome; and Oestre (the dawn goddess) in Britain.

They considered her "the Mother of Gods", and often depicted her either as a fertility symbol, or as a madonna figure.

Many pre-christian Europeans thought that their sun gods and fertility goddesses died at the winter solstice and regained life again at the spring equinox.

The concept of death and rebirth plays a large role in these legends. e.g. Cybele mourned two days for Attis, then celebrated his return on the third day, while Venus mourned two days for Adonis until he ascended to heaven on the third day.

From: http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rbutterw/essays/Easter.html

You can do an internet search on the origin of Easter and find plenty of information on this topic.

The question is how did the Pagans know about a virgin-born savior hundreds if not thousands of years before the time of Christ?

For this I would refer you to the following books:

Mazzaroth: Or the Constellations by Frances Rolleston

Gospel in the Stars by Joseph Seiss

Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger

Here’s a note I found on the internet:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/gis/gis_review.html

"The three books are Mazzaroth: Or the Constellations by Frances Rolleston (London: Rivingtons, 1862), Gospel in the Stars by Joseph Seiss (Philadelphia, 1882), and Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger (London, 1893). All are currently in print, the former having been reprinted recently by Weiser Books (2001) and the latter much earlier by Kregel (1972, 1967). Rolleston did most of the original work, but her book was almost totally ignored, partly because it is mostly a set of notes, which she expected readers to link together. The work was first popularized by Seiss, a Lutheran minister in America and then Bullinger in England. Each of them contributed something to the theory, and for many decades those two books were the only voices supporting the belief. Then in the last few decades, the cause has been espoused by many new adherents, but to the best of my knowledge, no one has contributed anything new in the last century. Thus a review of those three books covers most of what has been done on the subject."

- by John P. Pratt
Sat 10 July 2004
-

Pratt has a webpage titled "Answering Objections to Gospel in the Stars" located on the following link:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/gis/gis_qa.html

The Witness of the Stars is available online here:

http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/

Mazzaroth is available online here:

http://philologos.org/%5F%5Feb%2Dmazzaroth/

The Two Babylons, by Hislop, is also available online and is a great source of info on the pagan/Christian religious mix-up-mess.

http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/

Now, following is text from a correspondence I had with another person. It’s a little long-winded but in a round about way it shows where the paganism mix comes from.

Thanks xxx (name of person I was talking to), I actually cracked open my bible because of your input. And I haven't got to cain-abel-seth yet (too much). I'm onto some interesting stuff there, but will have to post on it later. This is getting way too long. Mostly, it's just notes as I study. But yes, as you are aware, evidence is there that cain and abel were "twins". Cain from satan, abel from adam. Satan probably incorporated this into his mythology. Next up looks like Nimrod, freemasonry, the eye of horus, Isis and horus, apis, the sphinx, serpent = religion, dragon = political, and on and on. lol

But for now;

Xxx, (there are) only defensive weapons. breastplate, shield, helmet, two-edged dagger, not sword. Eph. 6

Rev 12:9

"And the dragon namely-the great (one) was-cast, the serpent namely-the ancient, the (one) being-called Devil and the satan, the (one) leading-astray the total inhabited-earth, he-was-cast into the earth, and his angels were-cast with him."

Devil and Satan are his names: "dragon and serpent" are figurative descriptions of his nature.

Serpent=craftiness

2 Cor. 11:3

" But I-am-fearing lest by-any-means as the serpent deluded Eve in his craftiness, thus YOUR thoughts might-be-corrupted from the simplicity and the pureness (namely-that) with-reference-to Messiah."

"v13 For the (ones) such-as-these (are) false-apostles, treacherous workmen, transfiguring-themselves into apostles of-Messiah.

v14 And no marvel, for the Satan is-transfiguring-himself into (an) angel of-light.

v15 Therefore (it-is) not (a) great-thing if his ministers also are-transfiguring-themselves as ministers of-righteousness; of-whom the finish will-be according-to their works.

v16 I-am-saying again, might not anyone think me to-be foolish; but if not in-fact, YOU-receive me even-if as foolish, in-order-that I-also might-boast something (a) little-while."

(It's all good discussion.)

Satan is transfiguring himself into an angel of light, not into a literal serpent.

Note that the constellations are ordained by God:

Psalms 8

Psalms 8:3 kjv "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

v4: What is man, that thou art mindful of him?...." -What the angels said about Adam. ?

The stars are not of pagan design, and existed before pagans on earth.

Psalms 19 kjv

v1: "The heavens declare the glory of God: and the firmament sheweth his handy work.

v2:"Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

v3: "There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

v4: " Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,"

v5: "Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race."

v4 note LXX has "in the sun" "line" is better "utterance", words" is better "sayings"

v5 note "course" is used for "race" in the Interlinear Hebbrew-English Old Testament/J.Kohlenberger

The ancients considered the constellations a literal book.

Gen 1: 14

" and God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and for years;"

Signs is from the word ohth, which basically means "letter"

Ms Rolleston's Mazzaroth Part 4,

http://philologos.org/__eb-mazzaroth/400.htm#emblems

NOTE ON THE ASTRONOMY OF THE ANCIENTS
(From Southey's "Doctor.")

"According to the Cabalists, the ancient Hebrews represented the stars severally and collectively by the letters of the Alphabet; to read the stars, therefore, was more than a metaphorical expression with them. And an astral alphabet for genethliacal purposes was published near the close of the fifteenth century, at Cracow, by Rabbi Kapol Ben Samuel, in a work entitled 'The Profundity of Profundities.'

"But as this would rest upon an insecure foundation,—for who could be assured that the alphabet had been accurately made out?—it has been argued that the heavens are repeatedly in the Scriptures called a book, whence it is to be inferred that they contain legible characters; that the first verse of the first chapter of Genesis ought to be translated 'In the beginning God created the letter or character of the heavens,' and that in the nineteenth Psalm we should read 'their line' instead of 'their sound has gone forth into all lands,' this referring to their arrangement in the firmament like letters upon a roll of parchment. Jews, Platonists, and Fathers of the Church, are shown to have believed in this celestial writing. And there can be no question but that both the language and the characters must be Hebrew, that being the original speech, and those the original characters, and both divinely communicated to man, not of human invention. But single stars are not to be read as letters, as in the astral alphabet. This may be a convenient mode of noting them in astronomical observations; the elements of this celestial science are more recondite in proportion as the science itself is more mysterious. An understanding eye may distinguish that the stars in their groups form Hebrew letters, instead of those imaginary shapes which are called the signs of the zodiac. But as the stars appear to us only as dots of light, much skill and sagacity are required for discovering how they combine into the complex forms of the Hebrew alphabet. "

Now note what God said Lucifer said:

Isa 14:12 kjv

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

v13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

v14 : I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

If you look at the zodiac from north celestial pole it appears as the zodiac of astrology.

How do you tell the true zodiac from the pagan?

Pagan is Satan’s "view", all segments are 30 degrees each, it circles anti clockwise.

God's zodiac is viewed as you would from earth (they are for signs for us* –humans), runs clockwise, the segments are not equal nor easily indicated, the constellations overlap.

God, speaking to Israel:

Jer 10:2 kjv "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them"

Ps 96:5 kjv "For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens."

Ps 96:5 ct "...because all the gods of the Gentiles (are) little demons."

Note what God said about Israel/constellations:

Jer.31:35 kjv: "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar: The Lord of hosts is his name;" (note ASV1901 has "Jehovah of hosts is his name")

v36 :"If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

v37"Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord."

as an aside, v37 shows the purpose of NASA, etc., (I say that half jokingly, as there is great effort to measure the heavens.) Anti semitism proves the scriptures are the Word of God. God's promises to Israel must qualify as the ultimate Jewish conspiracy theory....and anti-semites (anti-jews, more proper) prove God's word is true!

Jesus makes a statement: Jews will be hated because of his name.

Mt 10:22 before the cross to Jews:

And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

CT: v9 Then they-will-give YOU over into tribulation, and they-will-kill YOU; and YOU-will-be being-hated by all the Gentiles because-of my name.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

CT: v13 And YOU-will-be being-hated by all because-of my name; but the (one) having-persevered with-reference-to (a) finish, this (one) will-be-saved.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake

v18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Anti-Semitism is one thing that proves Jesus and scriptures true.

CT Romans 3

v1 [b]What therefore the advantage of-the Jew[/b] or what the profit of-the circumcision?

|v2 [b]Much according-to every manner.[/b] For first on-the-one-hand because they-were-trusted (with) the oracles of-the God.

|v3 For what? If some disbelieved, will their unbelief render-inactive the trust of-the God? (note: greek requires a negative answer)

|v4 May-it not come-to-pass; but let-it-be-coming-to-pass, the God (is) true, but every MAN (is) (a) liar, even-as it-has-been-and-still-is-written: in-which-case you-might-be-justified in your words and you-might-have-victory in your being-judged.

So I say, Don't knock the Jews.

Has God cast off Israel? No.

Read Romans 11 Consistent Translation (CT), R.H.Mount

v1 I-am-saying therefore, (has) the God pushed-away-from-himself his people? (No!) May-it-not-come-to-pass; for I myself also am (an) Israelite, out-of seed of-Abraham, of-(the)-tribe of-Benjamin.

|v2 The God (has) not pushed-away-from-himself his people whom he-came-to-know-before. Or are-YOU not knowing-absolutely what the scripture is-saying in (the history of) Elias, as he-is-interceding With-the God down-upon the Israeli?

|v11 I-am-saying therefore, (Have) they-slipped in-order-that they-might-fall? (No!) May-it not come-to-pass; [b]BUT by-their offence the salvation to-the Gentiles, with-reference-to to-provoke them to-jealousy.[/b]

|v12 But if their offence (is) riches of-(a)-world and their inferiority (is) riches of-nations, in-how-much more their fullness.

Note: offence, not "fall", as is in other translations. Gentiles are to provoke the Jews to jealousy so they will study and obey God more, as they see it is so easy for Gentiles.

v17 But if some of the branches were-broken-out, but you being (a) wild-olive-tree yourself-were-grafted-in among them and you-became (a) fellow-partner of-the root (and?) of-the fatness of-the olive-tree,

|v18 [b]You-be not boasting-against the branches; but if you-are-boasting-against (them), you yourself-are not bearing the root BUT the root you.[/b]

|v19 You-will-say therefore: Branches were-broken-out in-order-that I myself-might-be-grafted-in.

Jews can easily be graft in again.

v23 But also-those, if they-might not continue in-the distrust, they-will-be-grafted-in; for the God is powerful to-graft them in again.

|v24 For if you yourself-were-chopped-away out-of the wild-olive-tree according-to nature and from nature you-were-grafted-in into (a) cultivated-olive, by-how-much rather these, the (ones) according-to nature, will-be-grafted-in to-their-own olive-tree.

v25 For I-am not willing (for) YOU to-be-being-ignorant brothers, (of) this mystery, in-order that YOU-might not be prudent in yourselves, that petrifaction has-come-to-pass-and-still-is from part to-the Israeli,

|v26 And thus all Israel will-be-saved, according-as it-has-been-and-still-is-written: The (one) delivering will-be-present out-of Sion, he-will-turn-back impiety from Jacob.

|v27 And this (is) the covenant from me to-them, at-the-time-that I-might-remove-for-myself their sins.

|v28 On-the-one-hand enemies according-to the good-news because-of YOU, on-the-other-hand cherished (ones) according-to the choice because-of the fathers;

|v29 For the bestowed-favors and the calling of-the God (are) unregrettable.

|v30 For as-altogether YOU yourselves at-one-time disobeyed the God, but now YOU-had-mercy-bestowed in-the disobedience of-these.

|v31 Thus these also now disobeyed in-order-that by your mercy they themselves also might now have-mercy-bestowed.

|v32 For the God shut-together all the (ones) with-reference-to disobedience in-order-that he-might-have-mercy (on) all the (ones).

|v33 O depth of-God's riches and wisdom and knowledge; as unsearchable his sentences and untraceable his ways.

|v34 [b]For who came-to-know (the) mind of Jehovah?[/b] Or who became his fellow-counselor?

|v35 Or who gave-before to-him, and it-will-be-repaid to-him?

|v36 Because out-of him and through him and with-reference-to him (are) the all-things; to-him (be) the glory with-reference-to the ages: Amen.

Genesis 12:3 ASV1901

and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

click this link for the hebrew: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1088286906-9921.html#3

and I will bless (barak) them that bless (barak) thee

and him that curseth (qalal)thee

thee will I curse ('arar)

The definitions are closer to ; I will bless them that bless thee and those that lightly esteem thee I will bitterly curse

So, if you don't think too highly of the Jews God will bitterly curse you. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God's promise to Abraham/Israel

Gen 12:2 " and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great: and be thou a blessing:"

Genesis 13:

v14;" And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

v15; For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

v16; And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.

[b]v17; Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

v18; Then Abram removed [his] tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which [is] in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.[/b]"

So now we have Abram’s walk.

Abram's walk, from The Genesis Apocrothon (Dead Sea Scroll)

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Dead_Sea_Scrolls/genesis_apocryphon.htm

And God appeared to me in a vision at night and said to me, "Go to Ramath Hazor which is north of Bethel, the place where you dwell, and lift up your eyes and look to the east and to the west and to the south and to the north; and behold all this land which I give to you and your seed forever."

The next morning, I went up to Ramath Hazor and from that high place I beheld the land from the River of Egypt to Lebanon and Senir, and from the Great Sea to Hauran, and all the land of Gebal as far as Kadesh, and all the Great Desert to the east of Hauran and Senir as far as Euphrates. And he said to me, "I will give all this land to your seed and they shall possess it forever. And I will multiply your seed like' the dust of the earth which no man can number; neither shall any man number your seed. Rise and go! Behold the length and breadth of the land for it is yours; and after you, I will give it to your seed forever."

And I, Abram, departed to travel about and see the land.' I began my journey at the river Gihon and traveled along the coast of the sea until I came to the Mountain of the Bull [Taurus]. Then I traveled from the coast of the Great Salt Sea and journeyed towards the east by the Mountain of the Bull, across the breadth of the land, until I came to the river Euphrates. I journeyed along the Euphrates until I came to the Red Sea [Persian Gulf] in the east, and I traveled along the coast of the Red Sea until I came to the tongue of the Sea of Reeds [the modern Red Sea] which flows out from the Red Sea. Then I pursued my way in the south until I came to the river Gihon, and returning, I came to my house in peace and found all things prosperous there. I went to dwell at the Oaks of Mamre, which is at Hebron, northeast of Hebron; and I built an altar there, and laid on it a sacrifice and an oblation to the Most High God. I ate and drank there, I and all the men of my household, and I sent for Mamre, Ornam, and Eshkol, the three Amorite brothers, my friends, and they ate and drank with me.

also, Gen 15:18 "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

Trace Abram's walk out on a map. gihon = nile I believe. Big area. Pretty much the whole Arabian Peninsula.

God's covenant/promise to Abraham "everlasting". Now that's a long time!

Leviticus 25:23 "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land [is] mine; for ye [are] strangers and sojourners with me."

Gal.3:16 CT " But to-the Abraham the promises were-said and to-his seed. It-is not saying: and to-the seeds, as upon many, BUT as upon one: and to your seed who is Messiah."

Jehovah Jesus Messiah does not have the land yet. Thy kingdom come. However, note:

Gen 13 kjv

v15;"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

v16; "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered."

So also given to all of Abraham's children.

Satan's SEX with Eve - the beginning of pagan astrology. "I have gotten a man with Jehovah."( See Genesis ch4 vs1).

Then he (Satan) made a corrupt interpretation of the zodiac. From this the mother-goddess (Mary) worship systems, along with all their idols.

Romans ch1 CT: (regarding Satan changing the truth of the zodiac to the lie of idolatry)

|v18 For wrath of-God is-being-uncovered on all impiety and unrighteousness of-MEN, the (ones) holding-fast the truth in unrighteousness,

|v19 For-the-reason-that the-thing known of-the God is manifest among them; for the God manifested (it) to-them.

|v20 For the invisible-things of-him from creation of (a) world being-understood by-the things-made (are)-being-seen-clearly, both his constant power and divinity, with-reference-to their being without-defense,

|v21 For-the-reason-that having-come-to-know the God they-glorified (him) not as God or gave-thanks, BUT they-were-aimless in their deliberations, and their heart without-understanding was-made-dark.

|v22 Alleging to-be wise (ones) they-were-made-stupid,

|v23 And they-changed the glory of-the imperishable God with (a) similitude of-(an)-image of-perishable MAN and of flying-things and of-four-footed-things and of-reptiles;

|v24 On-this-account the God gave them over with the desires of-their hearts with-reference-to uncleanness, their bodies to-be-being-dishonored among them.

|v25 They-who exchanged the truth of-the God with the lie, and they-venerated and they-served the creation beside the (one) having-created, who is blessed with-reference-to the ages; amen.

Mythology had a virgin born savior long before Isaiah wrote: Isa 7:14, "..a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel," =God with us. Mythology understood this child was to be a god. The wise men were directed by the stars. But remember, the stars were created by God first.

1John5:21 "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

CT I Tim. ch2: v5 "For (there-is) one God, one mediator also of-God and of-MEN, (the) MAN Messiah Jesus,

v6 The (one) having-given himself (a) ransom-exchange in-behalf-of all, the testimony for-its-own seasons;" NOT MARY. Not Isis and Horus.

Satan's method is to delude, to turn the truth into the lie. "yea, hath God said...."(place lie here.) Rev12:9 ct Satan is the one leading astray the total inhabited earth.

Don't confuse God's astronomy with pagan astrology.

Consider this from "The witness of the stars", by Bullinger

http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/

"But by the time that the antitype - the Lamb of God, was slain, the sun had still further receded, and on the 14th of Nisan, in the year of the Crucifixion, stood at the very spot marked by the stars El Nath, the pierced, the wounded or slain, and Al Sheratan, the bruised or wounded! God so ordained "the times and seasons" that during that noon-day darkness the sun was seen near those stars which had spoken for so many centuries of this bruising of the woman's Seed-the Lamb of God"

Just amazing.

The King James is easier to read for me because I grew up with it. My KJV has a lot of notes in it that I use. However, it is not very accurate. Many, many different english words translated from different Hebrew and Greek words. I think the American Standard Version of 1901is more accurate as it was translated directly from the Hebrew Masoretic text (900AD). Older texts exist, and there is not much conflict.

The Following from: http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1995/r&r9504a.htm - a good read -

TABLE 1. QUMRAN VS. THE MASORETES
______________________________________
Of the 166 Hebrew words in Isaiah 53, only
seventeen letters in Dead Sea Scroll 1QIs^b
differ from the Masoretic Text (Geisler and
Nix, 1986, p. 382).

  10 letters = spelling differences

    4 letters = stylistic changes

    3 letters = added word for "light" (vs. 11)
______________________________________
  17 letters = no affect on biblical teaching

The Douay is a translation of the translation (Latin vulgate), so not so direct. I had a Douay copy but will have to dig around to locate it. Interesting and sometimes humorous catholic footnotes, as they explain away the meanings. A thorough knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, or consistent one-greek/hebrew word for one english word translation is the way to go, but that is hard to find . Have to be careful with the pearls. Interlinears and lexicons help a lot. There are now many great online study helps.

The Blue Letter Bible is just fantastic. http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html Many great hard to find works are online.

God said to study to show yourself approved.

God chose the Jews out of the other nations (gentiles); had to be nations first, before there was a Jewish nation. No reason of theirs, Deut. 7:6, God did it to reveal his glory, in that keeping his promise to Israel He shows His authority.

kjv I Chron.16:

v13: O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones."

v17: "And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

v18:" Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inhereitance:"

Notice that God's promises to the Jews are forever. That's a long time.

Constellations have nothing to do with spring, as spring in the northern hemisphere is fall in the southern hemisphere.

Satan, a murderer from the beginning.

John8 kjv

v31"then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him...

note "on"

v39 they answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

v43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot ear my word.

ok see Romans 11 again.

v44" Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

murderer=man-killer, "when he speaketh the lie" not a lie. Greek text has the definite article.

Ye are of [your] father the devil; I believe refers them as sinners related to sin coming into the world via satan deluding Eve. All are sinners, and sin began in the garden. Obviously these Jews could prove their genealogy to Abraham.

v37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed;....."

So Jesus is not saying they are literal descendants of the devil.

v23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath: I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Note when Satan offered Jesus his earthly glory and power, Jesus did not contradict that Satan had this power and glory. He quoted scripture:

Luke 4:6 "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me: and to whomsoever I will I give it." (Note in the greek, "is delivered" is "has been and still is delivered" and "power" is better translated "authority". There are differences in order and in the Greek that show this trial to be different than the one in MT ch4. Perhaps another time: -)

Satan goes after the Jews

Satan has the power and authority and glory of earth, for now. But not over our hearts. When the Jews went into diaspora, he had to go global to persecute them, and thus the switch from the 6th world power, the Roman Empire, to the 7th world power, the Roman Catholic Church. The Holy Catholic church, by definition was, I believe, the true church. But the Roman Catholic church is not. Don't confuse with church periods, which at this time is perhaps still the Laodicean period (yep ,real and prophetic churches) where opinions dominate over study.

I Thess5:21 "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good."

v22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil"

You all just do it.

cain-abel-seth

just getting started here. so far:

Gen 4

v1; And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

note: here "the Lord" is from hebrew yahovah Remembering that Eve was deluded. "from" is hebrew 'eth, which is better "with". She thought satan was Jehovah (?), and said "I have gotten a man with Jehovah." Keil and Delitzsch, Pentatueuch, vol 1, p 108 confirms this translation.

v2; And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Abel was a prophet. see Luke 11:50-51

v5 note cain's offering was not accceptable - no blood shed.

v8; And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

v17; And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

v25; And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Here "God" is from hebrew elohiym

v26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Like I said, more study is needed. I came across some interesting stuff, hint Adam, pretty far out there, (lol), but until I can find some scriptural reference I'll have to pass on posting.

End internet discussion